My good friend Shahrazad has posted some very brutal photos in her post – “How to Celebrate Israel’s 60th birthday“.
As a Christian, I find myself spiritually and ethically torn when it comes to the modern nation of Israel. I fully believe God chose the people Israel and offered them a Promised Land. I don’t believe God would revoke such a promise, even when His children turn away.
At the same time, I am not as certain as many other Christians that the nation/state Israel formed in 1948 was necessarily what God had in mind. And, even if it was, I am even less certain that the terrain Israel claimed after the 1967 war was God’s plan.
Lately, I’ve been reading The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey.
Yancey takes a close look at the environment into which Jesus was born and tries to connect it with the world today. Yancey poses the challenging question, “Who cannot help noticing the similar plights of Galilean Jews in Jesus’ day and Palestinians in modern times?”
Yancey picks up this quote from Malcolm Muggeridge, writing in the 1970s -
The role of the Roman legionnaires had been taken over by the Israeli army. Now it was the Arabs who were in the position of a subject people; entitled, like the Jews in Jesus’ lifetime, to attend their mosques and practise their religion, but otherwise treated like second-class citizens.
Both groups, modern Palestinians and Galilean Jews, also share a susceptibility to hotheads who would call them to armed revolt. Think of the modern Middle East with all its violence, intrigues, and sqabbling parties. Into such an incendiary environment, Jesus was born.
I have no doubt that God chose the people Israel as His own children. At times, however, I have grave doubts that the nation that bears the Biblical name Israel bears much a family resemblance to its Maker.
pistolpete,
Israel is biblical, and the land they are occupying right is given by God today. You’ll gonna ask me, why then are they seem so cruel with Palestinians. They are not cruel with their Arab or Palestine neighbors , they are just protecting themselves. FYI , Palestine exist up to now , because Israel disobeyed God. And God cursed Israel, and put a thorn to his side, to torment him forever.
So you see, Palestine existed to be a cursed and to be a thorn to Israel . If only Israel obeyed God order to destroy these people(women and children at that), then I think Israel is at peace up to this time. You may wonder, why is it that Israel is so small a nation that Arab nations that has so vast an area has difficulty in conquering Israel ? The answer is this: It is the testimony of God to all nations on earth, that HE is protecting Israel and that HE gave that land to Israel, and that is also of one way of saying to unbelievers, that, HE REALLY EXIST.
And you know why God allowed the killing of 80,000,000 Jews, it is a message of anger to Jews who left Israel and forsake their homeland . That is why, when they began their exodus again for the second time, no nations on earth , except the Philippines , give them a place to rest or you may say, allowed to have a stopover .
The Pistol fires back: Thanks for your response. Much of it makes good Biblical sense. Certainly, the struggle the nation of Israel faces today is rooted in their on-again off-again relationship with God.
I gotta agree with dove mostly on this one. As for the temptation to feel sorry for the Palestinians–don’t be tempted–regardless of whether Israel acts according to God’s plan all the time (which I agree they do not)–Palestinians by their very nature are people who oppose the true God of this world and are enemies of God. Doesn’t mean we are not supposed to love them any less or spend any less time ministering to them–but don’t be sucked into feeling sorry for their plight on this world.
The Pistol fires back: I follow your thinking. Middle Eastern nations apart from Israel have often served as enemies of God. But yours is a rather blanket statement. Don’t forget some of those Palestinians are Arab Christians – our brothers and sisters in Christ.
I have a question. Now it’s God himself who gave palestine back to Israelis? Or they built their state on bloody slaughters?
That God we all worship never allows anybody to murder innocent civilans to take their homeland, just for fulfiling His promises. Now this land be in hand of whatever, muslims, christians, jews or pegans..
Is it the way God has fulfilled His promises ever? For example when He promised for a new saviour, Jesus to Israel tribe?
It’s like people assert that they’re themselves God and decide for Him and the time of His promises.
It’s NOT what God himself has gaven to Zionists and it’s NOT the way God had promised it…
The Pistol fires back: That’s a big question. I would only say God is true to His promises (i.e. land, descendents, Messiah). We, however, don’t always know when God’s promises are fulfilled. As a Christian, the best place to look for fulfilled promises is Jesus Christ.
@ Dove: “If only Israel obeyed God order to destroy these people(women and children at that), then I think Israel is at peace up to this time.”
I hesitate to even highlight your comment, because this one statement indicates to me that our views of God are so far apart as to be in different languages. The Jesus I know and the Kingdom which he inaugurated, as I understand it, throws open the doors of grace and love irrespective of ethnicity and nationality, and to look at people as you and mklasing appear to be doing, as a mass of people completely outside the moral universe, apparently not sacred children of God made in his image, is very far outside my understanding of the gospel of Christ.
Saying “the Palestinians,” followed by a moral judgement about whether they deserve sympathy or vengeance or whatever, is not valid. We did the same thing in America during the Cold War, demonizing all Russians (and planning to annihilate all of them at the drop of the hat, Christians included) as if the people outside of the realm of geopolitics weren’t just as victimized by their “leaders” as we would potentially be. The Russian political powers were massacring their own people, had clearly declared war against their own people, yet we continued and still continue to paint “the Soviets” as an unresolvable mass of amoral monsters outside the moral universe.
Now take the Palestinians. Yes, the “players” with the guns and the power antagonize (and are in turn antagonized by) Israeli forces. But there are Christians of Palestinian descent there just as much as there are people who “deny God” (no people “by their nature” defy God…we are made in his image). The Christian gospel is, again, open to all regardless of ethnicity, so they can’t “by their nature” be beyond salvation due to their ethnicity. That is anti-Gospel and just plain ugly.
The reading of both of these larger categories, Israeli and Palestinian, present both in the larger post and the subsequent comments a way, way too simplistic representation of these peoples. There are subgroups in each who pursue different aims – for example, there is a deep division in Israeli politics and culture about the legitimacy of the settler movement. The same is true in Palestinian culture visa vis the use of violence and terrorism against Israelis.
Remember: just because you are Abraham’s descendants doesn’t mean you automatically get X landmass. It is a covenant, and covenants are two-sided: God has His end of the bargain to uphold, and so do the Jews. The warnings of the prophets against their people’s injustices and the subsequent disasters visited on Israel in Scripture testifies to the fact that yes, God made a deal, but the terms of the deal bear directly on how Israel treats the people in that promised land, and it is clear that God holds his people to a very very high standard with regard to justice and mercy due to the terms of the agreement.
If Israeli really wants to invoke the covenant with God to claim that land, they absolutely better be ready to start keeping a strict eye on their end of the bargain, because God is a strict enforcer of transgressions of it.
I was introduced to the concept of Zionism through the Zion Chronicles or Zion Covenant books, I forget which series. Not saying anything about those books. But even reading them, with their pro-Zionist leanings, I thought Zionism sounded odd. It seems to me, just from this very limited exposure, that perhaps it was folks again taking things into their own hands, like Abraham with Hagar — God promised X, it hasn’t happened yet, maybe I’m supposed to make it happen.
Actually, there are a lot of Christian Palestinians … to define them as opposing God is fallacious. For the most part, by the way, Christian Palestinians don’t think much of Christian Americans. That might have to do with the fact that many of us don’t look for where our brethren are.
I’m with Pistol on this one … Israel makes me very uneasy. The Biblical return of Israel only happened after a return to faith and obedience. Israel is one of the more secular states around, very much like Western Europe in that regard.
The quick and blanket support that Israel gets from Christians in the US is, I believe, the result of very shallow thinking about the subject.
@DC: I agree, a covenant is two-sided – people of Israel have to uphold their side as God upholds His side. Just because God chose them does not make them automatically correct in any given situation. Starting wars, claiming land, ill-treatment of neighbors, without God’s leading is a break in that covenant and I believe God would not support them.
We also need to remember, as wickle said, that we are Christians and need to support our brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of race, national origin, or place of employment.= :-)
Just my 2 cents
Pete, thanks for this post which has a lot more nuance than you’re given credit for.
The history of the Zionist movement (heavy sigh) was extremely secular in nature despite what many fundamentalist Christians would like to think. The present nation of Israel was carved out of a heavily Christian area of the Middle East as way to assuage the guilt most of Western Europe felt because they had turned a blind eye to Hitler prior to WWII. Palestine is and was a Christian nation where (until very recently) Muslims were a tiny minority.
There are two events which happened in ancient history that would render a Biblical nation of Israel moot. The first was the birth, death and resurrection of the Messiah. His coming meant that the nation and Promised Land were no longer limited to Israel. The second was the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. That destruction was brought about because of the clear and simple disobedience of the people of Israel.
I don’t mean by any of this to sound like an anti-Semite. Far from it. I think that we have lost some of our richest heritage by ignoring the rich traditions and teachings of Jews. But having the current nation of Israel has cost our country and the world dearly. I’m with the Pistol on this … I’m not certain it was the right idea.
Hey all, I did not mean to sound like I am anti-Palestinian. I was not referring to Christian Palestinians because they, by definition are not trying to erradicate every Jew and Christian living in Israel. My point was that we need to be careful that regardless of Israel’s activities, we should not be sucked into feeling sorry for the group of Palestinians bent on destroying Israel completely. Remember, they don’t simply want a piece of land, they want all of the land and they want Israel gone and they want all Jews dead.–So whether Israel’s response to their efforts is Godly or not, I have no sympathy for the Palestinian plight to the extent it falls into the category I just mentioned.
Okay, now my brain is tired. ;)
The Pistol fires back: Thanks for clarifying. I can see your point.
mklasing, i think you mistaken the whole topic. It’s not muslims who want to take whole land. Before Israel’s foundation jews, christians and muslims were living together in that land.
From which source you say palestinians want whole lands when they’re not even recognised as real citizens there?!!
You can read here on NY Times that how palestinians are consodered as strangers in their homeland:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/world/middleeast/07israel.html?fta=y
Israel has been defined as a “JEW” land, a land just belonged to jews and based on its government, it’s not belonged to christians like you or palestinian christians either and even Israel doesnt recognise them in this way!!
Nobody says the land is for this or that religion. Palestine belongs to all “PALESTINIANS”, now they be jew, christian or muslim, no difference..
I really enjoyed “The Jesus I never knew” by Yancey.
I am pro-Israel in the sense that any nation that has other nations explicitly committed to destroying them needs help.
I am very uncomfortable with those that read the Bible like a script and think they have to push things along to accomplish what God has deemed. I want to say to them, “Really, guys, He’ll take care of it in due time.”
DC,
I think of your understanding of God of Israel is so shallow. You really don’t understand HIM.
Israel and Christian belief :
Fact: God , created man after their image, and likeness.
Fact : God is The Supreme being, so therefor, answerable to no one.
Fact: Since we are His creation , He can do to us whatever He wants to do.
Fact: God loves those who love Him.
Fact: God destroyed all His creation(human beings because they are wicked (including the children , even though they are not wicked)and all animals that crawl and walk upon the earth, etc.) save the 8 souls and animals in the the ark.
Fact: God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah including all the surrounding towns and cities , because of their wickedness.
And many other events, of How God destroy the wicked.
Now, when God is about to give Israel the Promise Land , He gave an order to Joshua and to Israel this command.
But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save NOTHING THAT BREATHETH :
But thou shalt utterly destroy them : namely, the HITTITES, and the AMORITES , the HIVITES, and the JESUBITES; AS THE LORD THY GOD HATH COMMANDED THEE :
Deuteronomy 20: 16-17
But what did they do :
Joshua did not destroy the inhabitant of Gibeon, and Chephirah, and Beeroth, and Kir-jath-je-a-rim.
Joshua 9:17
And the children of BENJAMIN did not drive out the JEBUSITES that inhabit JERUSALEM.
Judges 1:21
Neither did MANASSEH drive out the inhabitants of BETH-SHE-AN and her town.
Judges 1:27-28
Neither did EPHRAIM drive out the CANAANITES that dwelt in GEZER.
Judges 1:29
Neither did ZEBULUM drive out the inhabitants of KITRON, nor the inhabitants of NA-HA-LOL; but the CANAANITES dwelt among them, and became tributaries.
Judges 1:30
And so forth. Read Judges 1:31 -34
The penalty for Israel for not obeying God , read Judges 2: 1-4 ; And the nation that will be a thorn to Israel, read Judges 3:1-3 .
And as to the Christians, Jesus Christ has this ff. information to them:
1. Verily, Verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his Lord ;….John 13:16
2. These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
They shall put you out of the synagogue: yea, THE TIME COMETH, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
And these things will they do unto you, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE FATHER, NOR I. —John 16:1-3
3. But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your FATHER which is in heaven :…. Matthew 5:44-45
sonja,
I have to correct you. Biblical Israel still exist to day up to this minute. As the children of Ismael also still exist today. And also the children of Esau .
@dove124:
I’d have to say that anyone claiming to “understand God” is engaging in a little egomania. As a Christian, the best I can do is to try to understand what Jesus revealed about the nature of God. I find in him no violence whatsoever, a love that extends *especially* to the sinner and my enemies, and a demand that I die before hurting those who want to hurt me. You very helpfully highlight “Love your enemies.” You can’t do that while killing them.
“Fact: Since we are His creation , He can do to us whatever He wants to do.”
Well, I do agree with this statement. I would have to say, though, that this tends to be used as an excuse for people claiming to be acting in His name when killing other people for their purposes while confusing their purposes for God’s. But in response to the cherry-picking of scripture you’ve done to support your understanding of God, shall I run through the list of scriptures warning Israel of the consequences for not showing kindness *to the stranger in the land?* Or to the demands of mercy? Or to the visions of the peaceable kingdom? I note you’ve very helpfully confined your quotes to a very specific period of Israel’s history and have ignored a great deal of material in the later prophets…
I’d have to agree with biblical Israel being Israel we see today. I don’t think the prophesies described much about what its character would be. It’s very name means “struggles or wrestles with God” (Gen. 32).
I liked the photo of the sexy soldier lady, by the way. :-)
My question: how do you integrate / synthesize? Clearly, the Bible includes stories of God telling Israel to go kill a bunch of people, other stories of kindness to aliens, and then NT stuff, too. If we want to take the Bible as a whole, how do we make sense of all these things?
Whether God has given the Jews Israel or not, they have responsibilities to the Palestinians.
In the Old Testament they are taught to be charitable to the stranger because they were strangers in Egypt. They are taught to be hospitable to the foreigner.
I believe Israel has a right to defend itself but it also has a moral responsibility to its Palestinian neighbors. The violence and extremism of Hamas and Fatah is not an excuse to treat Palestinians unfairly.
There can be security and charity.
If we want to take the Bible as a whole, how do we make sense of all these things?
Good question Marcy. As Christians see it, Christ took on all the sins of mankind – he took our punishment. So, now, we are not free to go kill anyone. The Bible as a whole is a story of Jesus Christ. Here’s a quick Bible study on that perspective. Take care.
marcy,
If your a Christian, of course, you have to adhere to Christ’s teaching , But Israel is not a Christian nation. They are following a different set of rules. I’ll give an idea.
Jesus saith : YE HAVE HEARD THAT IT HATH BEEN SAID, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR , AND HATE THINE ENEMY .( this particular law was given and intended for Israel to be followed, before the time of Jesus.And this same law is what they still are following now.(mat. 5:43) ))
Now , when Jesus had arrived, He introduce another kind of law, not the Mosaic law, BUT THE LAW OF CHRIST.
But I say unto you, (referring to follower to be of Christ ) LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU, DO GOOD TO THEM THAT HATE YOU, AND PRAY FOR THEM WHICH DESPITEFULLY USE YOU, AND PERSECUTE YOU .
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven : for He maketh the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if you love them which love you, what reward have ye ? do not even the publicans the same ?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT, EVEN AS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT. matthew 5: 44 – 48
So you see, we, who are Christians , have no right whatsoever to judge them and force them to follow a different set of rules that they don’t obey.
econ grad,
Well, it’s easy for you to say , that they have the moral responsibility to its Palestinian neighbors , and at the same time they have the right to defend it from them.
I’ll give you a scenario of what I mean: Palestinians wants their land back, Israel said , NO. Palestinians fires a rockets to Israel city, and killing hundred of it’s citizens , so naturally, Israel retaliate, killing thousands of Palestine. Do you mean at this point that Israel, whom you say that has a moral responsibility,will to go to the site where they drop a bomb, and say to those injured Palestinians ,” hey, were here to help you guys!!”Do you really think they can do that? What and If , your an Israeli, will you do that ? Supposing your an Israeli Army, and your to confront the enemy in its territory, what will you do when your about to face an enemy that is in civilian clothes, and no recognizable mark and about to attack you. Tell me.
So , please don’t judge them. They are just doing what a survivor would do. And for Palestinians Christians, they either have to leave the place , or just have to be patient. And if your so concern about them, why don’t you , yourself go there.? And lend a helping hand.
Maybe you’ll make a difference.