I Do Have One Gay Friend
January 15, 2008 by pistolpete
I would never march for gay rights. I don’t like homosexuals. I don’t like heterosexuals, for that matter. Or a-sexuals. Or transexuals. I don’t like any abstract group of people who define themselves by their sexuality.
I do, however, have one gay friend I like a great deal. We share a lot in common.
We both adore country music, especially Patsy Cline.
We are both in people professions and we’re good at getting to know peoples’ names.
We’ve cried together over tragic deaths and laughed at funny things old people some times do.
We’ve both had serious health issues and wondered about our vocational path.
We’ve both adopted children and served as each other’s recommendations.
We like to dress sharp.
Actually he does. I’m hopeless.
We both believe in God and value practicing our faith in particular churches.
Interestingly, we also both believe same-gender sexual activity is against God’s will. With tears in his eyes he once shared with me about having sex with men, “I wouldn’t do this if I could get myself to stop.”
My friend goes for extended period of times without being in sexual relationships, then someone will move in. Still, he will segregate him from the rest of his life. He wants to live according to the standards he believes God has for his life, but he can’t seem to resist his sin and - from time to time, gives into it. (I’m not just saying this, mind you, he would as well.)
Several of his homosexual friends have tried to get him to shed his ”self-hatred” caused by the ”unnecessary guilt” poured on him by such as those in the Christian community. He doesn’t buy it. He’ll hang out with them, often befriend them, but he still maintains his faith that God loves him yet believes with certainty that same-gender sexual expression is wrong and hurtful.
Now, I know many self-professing Christians (and others) go way overboard in condemning homsexual persons, even for who they are, not just what they do. My friend was even the target of a vandalism campaign at his place of business that was clearly motivated by peoples’ anger at his sexuality.
I also know (and my homosexual friend would agree) there are many gays who so want to blur the distinction between their identity as homosexuals and their behavior of same-gender sex that you can’t critique them in any way. A discussion of the morality of their sexuality becomes a blanket homophobic diatribe. Either you are with us, or you’re homophobic, likely having repressed homosexual tendencies yourself. You want it. You can’t have it. So, you hate it.
My good virtual friend Jemila in “Gay-Ness, Gluttony, and Godly Love“ has rightly pointed to the despicable spirit that can be found in the Christian community towards gays and the unfairness of targeting this one “sin” over others to condemn. She contends that many homosexual persons have already looked to Scripture for guidance:
“Homosexual people are not illiterate. If they are Christian it is likely they have engaged with what the bible says about certain types of gay relationships that occurred in ancient Israel and 1st century Palestine and they have and continue to seek God live as they look to live out their best interpretation of what God wants for human intimacy. They may be wrestling with their orientation and their practices or they may feel at peace with themselves.”
The problem with just accepting that people have wrestled with Scriptural issues and come to different conclusions than us is that this opens the door to various interpretations that would be just plain wrong and potentially dangerous.
What if I struggle with the slave/master texts and conclude it’s okay to have slaves (we have some now on Long Island, by the way)?
What if I wrestle with texts about polygamy and conclude that I can take multiple wives?
What if I study relationships between men and women and conclude that the subjugation of women is sanctioned by Scripture?
As professing Christians, we need to go further than just accept that people have raised ethical questions about their behavior. We need to carefully, prayerfully, and lovingly engage them in dialogue about how the whole Scripture message can apply to the world today. This is true for same-gender sexual activity as much as any behavior that seems to violate clear Scriptural standards.
The best thing we can do as Christian in response to homosexual persons is to care for them as we would anyone else, not in an effort to change them, but to grow with them in a relationship of faith and love. Maybe together we can find that sex is not the ultimate expression of spiritual union. Love is best found in a relationship with Jesus Christ. You don’t need sex for that.
**********
more on homosexuality…
Hi Pete — this is a beautiful post, funny pictures.
Yet I see a clear distinction between two types of behavior you listed. One list clearly exploits or harms self, another or the community: slavery, alcoholism probably most forms of polygamy, most forms of subjugation of women and sexual behavior that is coercive, ignorant of the human being owning the sex organs, promiscuous or unprotected, and we could list many others. Your friend believes the same thing you do about the bible — that is his own conviction — I see it like the weaker brother — his conviction makes it wrong for him. Yet couples in same sex relationships who do not have that guilt are not harming themselves or each other in any clear way that would warrant the community interfering.
I remember when David and I found each other and my conservative friends couldn’t see the joy on my face for the first time in years, or celebrate that my daughter would have a dad that was able to be solid and loving and model a healthy relationships for her — because in their minds according to the bible I was supposed to remain single my whole life or else reconcile with my abusive husband. That was, that HAD TO BE “God’s best” for me.
I cried inside so many times. Their biblical view interfere with them seeing me — seeing my happiness, seeing the outside of the box way God was redeeming the hellishness I had been through when I thought God had abandoned me… and I still have wounds around this that need healing. One of those friends, a few years later came around to support my relationship with David and in fact spent a year and a half counseling women to leave abusive relationships :)
The Pistol fires back:
First, thank you for your thoughtful words. They mean a great deal coming from someone as gifted as you. (And I would say this even if you weren’t my long-lost twin.)
Second, the category of “exploitation” is a rather ill-defined one. While most our society would now view consensual sex between two adults as “non-exploitative” today, that doesn’t mean it can’t harmful for self, relationships, or community. For example, suppose I engaged in consensual pre-marital sex (with a woman, in case you were conjuring an image in your mind). This may be defined as “non-exploitative” but, as I have seen many, many times before, it can be very damaging to self, relationship (and future marriage relationship) and community (especially children).
Third, while I understand your anaology about “weaker” in regard to my friend, it’s an unfortunate term. It also implies that his gay friends are able to engage in same-gender sexual behavior in such a way that it has no impact on their faith. This couldn’t be further from the truth. In many, if not most, cases I have found, engaging in same-gender sex moves one further away from a relationship with Christ (even beyond the church)
Finally, your story of David is both beautiful and apt. You are right that the “remaining single” line in Scripture is plainly there and it would be skirting the issue to avoid it. I’ve counseled a number of divorced folks who, years later, continue to acknowledge the sin (though often lesser of two sins) in divorcing. Yet, they had come to embrace the amazing, forgiving love of God. While some remained single, several were then called into healthy, holy relationships, as you have with David. Praise God!
Connecting this with my gay friend…. my prayer is that God lead him to a companion or companions (of either gender) with whom he might share a wonderfully intimate, spiritual (but not sexual) relationship.
I think that you have managed to do what is seldom done in Christian circles — deal compassionately with homosexuality without giving up the Biblical principles.
Very well done.
The Pistol fires back: Thank you. That’s certainly what I have aimed to do. Glad to hear you think it worked.
great post Pistol! I especially like the fact you wrote about a personal friendship relationship with a gay man…good stuff!
-jeremy
The Pistol fires back: Glad you found this meaningful.
Pete, you have a nuanced and interesting thought process, which I respect.
I agree that many sexual relationships that might at face value appear consensual are, in fact, exploitative. As a matter of fact, i would argue that a great many sexual dynamics and acts within a marriage can and are exploitative. And not all relationships outside marriage are exploitative, whatever one’s view of their legitimacy may be.
I wonder if gay culture tends to lead people away from Christ at least significantly because so much condemnation and ostracism from Christianity has led to the development of a culture (esp gay males) that is often rebellious and crass in its expression. I know when I didn’t feel accepted by the church, my instinct was, “F” it, I have no family, no spiritual family, who cares?
If gay Americans weren’t “fringe,” but were simply allowed as anyone else who has something unique about them, it would allow the Cristian community to encourage the commitment and Christ-centered love in homosexual relationships.
The point you raise about marriage and divorce is interesting one. As I understand it, if you were taking scripture literally, it is not only divorce which is a sin, but also the new marriage itself, which is adultery. Therefore, it would be wrong for all people to ever marry again, in all situations, grace of God or not grace of God as far is forgiving divorce itself. Yet you leave space for people to be “called” into healthy relationships of a heterosexual nature after divorce, even though this isn’t actually scriptural, if you are consistent about your hermeneutic. Yet with homosexuals, you don’t leave space for, in the grace of God, a homosexual be in a healthy, committed gay relationship.
Confused in New Jersey… :)
The Pistol fires back:
Dear Confused,
I’ll field your comments in reverse order -
1) A homosexual may absolutely live in a healthy, even holy, committed gay relationship as long as sex isn’t involved. This may seem like cruel and unusual punishment since those of us who are married get to have sex, but, on the other hand, it isn’t sex that makes a relationship spiritually intimate. So, we wouldn’t be “denying” them spiritual intimacy by “denying” them sex.
2) I’ll be the first to admit I don’t have the whole remarriage bit worked out biblically. Certainly widows entering into godly second marriages are acceptable. What about women from abused relationships, where their temples would have been destroyed had they remained married? That’s one situation where I have to simply say that pastorally I might advise someone contrary to the plain teaching of Scripture and pray that God’s grace would cover the sin.
3) While it is possible pushing gays to the fringe of Christian culture contributes to their distance from Christ, it doesn’t explain it away. I’ve done well over 500 funerals for people who were turned off/turned away by churches for various reasons yet they maintained a firm belief that they were okay with Christ.
4) We are in agreement that sexual acts within marriage can be exploitive. While some sexual acts outside of marriage may not be exploitive, they certainly can be damaging. I had a seminary professor once who said that when you get married, right above your marriage bed you should place pictures of all the men and women you’d slept with, because, like it or not, you bring them with you when you have sex.
I just want you to know it’s a joy talking sex with you within these safe, healthy boundaries.
P.S. I do agree that “weaker” is an unfortunate term — I only selected it because I speaking to my evangelical twin brother and the term is biblical ;)
The Pistol fires back: Understood. I just think you confused who the “weaker” ones were.
your pastoral heart is written all over this Pistol. Thanks
The Pistol fires back: I really appreciate that coming from you.
I can appreciate your relationship with your friend Pete but the “slippery slope” argument is just plain tired. It can be used by anyone on any side of any issue biblical or otherwise and is not proof of what the Bible says about any of these issues.
Also, this is just ill informed.
” In many, if not most, cases I have found, engaging in same-gender sex moves one further away from a relationship with Christ (even beyond the church)”
Many people could say “In many, if not most cases, I have found engaging in safe gender sex doesn’t do anything negative for those persons’ relationship with Christ”
One could argue that many people engaging in same sex sex have moved “away” from Christ (I’m not sure how one decides this as an observer but assuming one can) BECAUSE homosexuals are not welcomed at the table, they aren’t treated the same and THAT will lead many to leave the church in group form but not at all take them further away from Christ except that away from the gathering of believers, all of us miss something in our relationship with Christ.
I have no intention of trying to make you accept homosexuality in any way spiritually or otherwise. But it’s important to stay intellectually honest about the issue. (for all of us)
The biggest thing we need to keep in mind is that homosexuality and heterosexuality can both manifest aberrant behaviors - much of what people refer to as “unhealthy” in terms of homosexuality is just plain aberrant across the board.
People say things like “I have a cousin who’s gay and he’s very unhappy and unhealthy and that’s what sin does, it destroys you” as if that was somehow proof that “gayness” was the source of his downward spiraling life. But the elder on the church board who is an abusive drunk, has had 3 surgeries in 6 months, 2 family members who have died in a year and struggles with depression is just having a rough year and everyone gathers around him and takes care of him.
I’m just glad you can love a friend who is gay - I imagine, or would hope that you could also love a friend who is “comfortable” being gay. While I disagree with many of your specific points and end conclusion I too appreciate your pastor heart.
The Pistol fires back: Thank you for expressing yourself in an honest, thoughtful way. Several of the issues you raise I address in response to Jemila. I would agree that aberrant behavior is present in all of us. I call it sin.
You are right, by the way, that my point about the unhealthy consequences of same-gender sex is made from anecdotal evidence. I don’t trust surveys that tell me how gays (or straights) think or feel or believe. The best I can go on is what I hear and see and what my faith tells me.
Thank you again, however, for disagreeing so agreeably.
I don’t have much to say in response, and you may know I am not a Christian, nor do I believe in God. However, this post is the best one I’ve read by you so far. Oddly enough your words reminded me of this quote…I figured you might enjoy it.
“In our deepest moments of struggle, frustration, fear, and confusion, we are being called upon to reach in and touch our hearts. Then, we will know what to do, what to say, how to be. What is right is always in our deepest heart of hearts. It is from the deepest part of our hearts that we are capable of reaching out and touching another human being. It is, after all, one heart touching another heart.”– Roberta Sage Hamilton
–Hope
The Pistol fires back: Wow! I really appreciate you expressing your thoughts on this post. It means a lot coming from you.
A thought that crossed my mind as I was reading the majority of the responses, and pardon me if it’s already been said: Who did Christ ever “kick to the curb”?
The Pistol fires back: Were there even any curbs to be kicked to during those days? No, the obvious answer to your question is - “No one.” Christ loved everyone AND he challenged everyone to lead godly lives. He was an equal opportunity lover of persons and hater of sins.
Hope, that is a powerful, beautiful quote. Thank you!
The Pistol fires back: I can’t take credit for it. Everything good I come up with is stolen from someone else.
The example of Jesus Christ the rabbi, the teacher… whether he be a historical figure, mythical, or divine, his example goes beyond the cryptic scripture we call the Bible that so many wrestle with and ultimately can interpret justification for just about any belief - from charity to murder, to handling serpents or speaking in tongues. Listen my friends, it’s BS … written by men with agendas in the Dark Ages. It is the source of more confusion, bigotry and divisiveness than almost any book ever conceived. i.e… Jesus is inconsistent, he does not always profess peace, (see Matthew 10:34-39; Luke 12:49-53). Yet we call him ‘the Prince of Peace.’
Religious conservatism has been revealed as the source of sexual perversion and persecution common and growing in the present day. Conservative politicians vote against gay rights but go to meet men in airport bathrooms for anonymous sex (Sen. Larry Craig [R- ID]), they profess to be protectors of children against pedophiles but solicit internet sex with kids (Mark Foley [R-FL] - ousted from the House, Republican Federal Prosecutor John David Roy Atchison who hung himself in jail after trying to have sex with a 5 yr old. Then we have the Catholic Priest sex scandals that have gone on for decades and longer. Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart televangelists involved in sex scandals (gay, prostitute).
On the liberal Democrat side, we have gay Congressmen like Barney Frank who are openly gay and are accepted. Politicians who champion the rights of gays. Doesn’t this seem like a healthier more realistic way to lead one’s life? Isn’t this closer to what you’d like to believe Jesus would do?
We can see a general trend that religious conservatives have about sex in general. Conservatives have always waged a ‘war on sex education.’ Have you heard the results of these faith-based high school abstinence clubs where kids take ‘virginity pledges’? Teens that took the virginity pledges were six times as likely to have engaged in oral sex as as those who did not pledge, four times as likely to have engaged in anal sex as those who did not pledge, were much less likely to use contraception the first time they had sex, were less likely to use condoms during their first sexual experience, were less likely to get tested for STDs… so much for the war on sex ed.
In this day and age where the bottom feeding conservative republicans - all the way up to president Bush, try to ‘energize the base’ with their war on gays…. against gay marriage, and virtually any type of gay rights - this is bigotry - pure and simple.
I’m a straight male, but being involved in the fine arts, I have gay friends. A few of them have been in the closet their whole lives!! Reason? Their conservative religious background. They are the perverted ones that because of their religion can’t be who they are. It’s sad. One kid I worked with in college, a church organist, brilliant guy, committed suicide after being caught in bed with his guy by his parent. He walked in front of a train. Keith.
Time for a favorite quote:
“My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can”. — Frank Zappa
The Pistol fires back: First, I appreciate you reading my post and taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. I’m not quite sure what to write in response to your many comments. I need to take some time to prayerfully reflect on them. So, I’ll be back soon.
I think that issue at hand (blatant discrimination of Homosexuals in church) is that there is poor spiritual health in the church body. Whatever happened to not judging people because of their sins? Yes, it is my conviction that the Bible condemns homosexuality but it also condemns stealing, lying, all other immorality, and etc. Christians tend to judge harshly on sins that are “big” when we all live lives of filth in God’s eyes everyday! There is no bigger sin in homosexuality than stealing gum from a candy store. However…Christians, people who think they are Christian and homosexuals (included in both) are fooling themselves by trying to justify their sinful lifestyle. The Bible says we are new creations when we accept Christ. If you try to bring sinful lifelstyles into salvation…your salvation isn’t true in my opinion because you are to put off the old self and be clothed in purity and holiness. Since we are dealing with homosexuality here…we must remember that God created man and woman to be together when creation of sinless…since the fall of man, homosexuality is one stem from the tree as a result of sin.
On a side note…this has been a very good post on the subject and how to properly discuss the topic Pistol.
The Pistol fires back:
I follow you on the idea that it is unwise to place degrees on sin. Particular sins, however, do have particular consequences (some more damaging than others). Nonetheless, we share a fallen condition with those who engage in same-gender sex, those who commit usary, those who steal, etc.. While our particular sins may have unique consequences, we are no more or less a sinner because of the type of sin we commit.
I agree that homosexuality is a sinful condition. The Apostle Paul includes it in a laundry list of sin that includes the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, and swindlers.
Thank you for your kind words. It means a lot to me that my posts are being read and appreciated.
Jemila, I know what you mean about the remarriage issue. Having both an ex-wife and a wife, myself, it is often an awkward situation. I have lost a couple friends because they simply can’t accept what they see as my adulterous behavior.
To Pistol - Thankfully, my wife was a virgin when we were married, and the only woman with whom I’d slept before was, well, my ex-wife. So we don’t need much of a photo gallery, but I really don’t want to put a picture of my ex-wife in my bedroom.
The Pistol fires back: I’ll be sure Jemila gets your comment. She’ll appreciate it. I know what you mean about reluctance to display the photo. I don’t want to even go into what my photo gallery would look like.
Great post Pete. I appreciate it, and I hope that we in the Church can demonstrate Christ’s love to those in the GLBT community. It is sad that the most those folks usually see out of us is protest.
The Pistol fires back: So true. I read an article once from a lesbian who had been led to give her life to Christ and become celibate. She said she thinks she would have done it years earlier had she ever met a Christian who had shown her love instead of hate.
Hi Wickle — I am so sorry you’ve lost friends on account of your new wife. I have no understanding of your situation, but in mine i can say that I am able to be more true to my original vows to “love honor and cherish” my former spouse unmarried than I would have if I had stayed. I am lucky in that my former spouse got help after we split and is actually a nice guy now and my current husband and ex get along fine. With time, healing slowly comes, like light seeping into dark and ripped corners, creating a new and beautiful patchwork held together by grace, so that in fact all relationships are healing, only in a new configuration.
My son by my current husband calls my former spouse “Uncle Mike” and sometimes “Daddydad,” which is the name he goes by with my oldest daughter. My ex has been known to babysit so my current husband and I can go out on a date.
Occasionally crap comes up, but overall there is a recognition that huge mistakes were made all around, with everyone thankfully surviving and coming out of it in a new place that is okay with everyone.
The Pistol fires back: Sounds like a rather unusual family situation but not, I’m sure, without its benefits. I’ll see that Ken (Wickle) gets this. By the way, Jemila, you’ll want to check out his site - http://1truebeliever.wordpress.com . Ken’s an avid Huckabee-hound.
any chance I can get a copy or link to that article pete?
The Pistol fires back: The only “article” I can find in this post is Jemila’s and I put a link on it. Am I missing something?
Pete, I am still at a loss for why, pastorally you allow room for going against the plain teaching of scripture for heterosexual couples looking into marrying a second time, but you allow only celibate intimacy for gay couples? What is the distinction in your eyes?
I do agree that sex isn’t everything, but it is something…and having celibate intimacy is probably more realistic for some couples than others, through not fault of their own.
I, for one could never keep my hands off my husband if he suddenly decided we ought to be celibate. Other couples would likely be relieved to have permission to be celibate! :)
The Pistol fires back: Ah, Jemila, you are one feisty gadfly!
Okay, I don’t claim to have worked out a consistent ethic/interpretation of remarriage, but I’ll give you a glimpse of my current interpretive process. Looking at the whole of Scripture, there are certainly times when remarriage is permissable, even advisable (Paul recommends young widows marry). Divorce in Bible times was, as you no doubt know, was essentially initated by the man. A man could divorce his wife for no good reason, just by filling out some paper work (sounds a lot like today). In the face of this, in Matthew, Jesus puts some parameters on the practice -
“But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.”
I don’t believe Jesus is intended to condemn divorced women here so much as warn husbands not to divorce so freely.
He does something more in Mark, though. He takes away the unfaithfulness clause and addresses both men and woman.
“He answered, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.’”
It’s this second part that troubles me. First, I had always assumed only men could initiate divorce. I have to research more about the divorce customs of that day. Still, the plain meaning is a tough one, hard to swallow. Essentially, remarriage is adultery. We (myself included) don’t want to think about it this way.
But think about this - how did Jesus respond when he was pressured into condeming a more “typical” adulteress? He said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
All this is to say I do believe the Bible says divorce is contrary to God’s standards. I’ve seen plenty of situations, however, where it is the lesser of two sins/evils. The key is, when divorce (and even remarriage) occurs, we need to rely on the forgiving love of Christ to get us through.
Just one brief note on celibacy. I’m sure it must be hard. But people can do hard things. Food-aholics have it much more difficult. You don’t have to have sex. You have to eat, at least something.
the article that you referred to in comment # 14
The Pistol fires back: I really can’t remember. I referred to it in a sermon probably a dozen years ago. I may have found it in a “Focus on the Family” magazine, but I can’t be sure. Sorry.
I agree with this post wholeheartedly. Well done Pete! I was once a radio morning show DJ for a Christian Radio station. It was in the late 80’s and I had a caller call in and proclaim that AIDS was God’s punishment on homosexuals. I immediately stated back, so what is your punishment for selfishness, greed, pride, arrogance, unkindness, jealousy, gossiping, lying, coveting….
She had no response. I’m convinced as I get older that people are not born gay–they are born sinners. Some of us struggle with cursing and drinking while others struggle with adultery and pornography and others struggle with truth and integrity, etc… Unfortunately, those that struggle with sexual sin struggle the most because it is an extremely difficult addiction to abandon. Whether it is porn, homosexual conduct or heterosexual conduct–sex, when utilized outside of God’s plan is just like every other sin–only God can really deal with it. I have some gay friends and I know they struggle with their lifestyle–not because of society (which is always the scapegoat) but because God did not make them to operate this way–and that battle is tough–even when they don’t know they are fighting it.
The Pistol fires back: That was a good response to the caller. I think I agree with you on the “being born a sinner” part, but again our terminology is different. Our sins are inherited (for three generations) and I do believe particular sins are inherited by particular people. For me, it’s alcoholism (and mental illness, if you consider the “condition” sinful, in terms of a disorder). Homosexuals do have a great struggle, particularly since of society is so overly sexualized. I would say, however, that food-aholics have it worse. You don’t have to have sex. You have to eat.
Hi — thanks for the humble and lengthy response.
My query wasn’t so much about divorce — a wonderful topic for another post — as about why you are okay with “not having it figured out” in one area (second marriages) and leaving a wide open space for the grace of God in the gap between what you describe as the “plain” meaning of scripture and your intuition of what the Spirit is doing in a person or couple’s life, while you come down clear cut and definitive — no sex for gays, even in the context of a grace-filled committed relationship (or marriage if you live in Massachusetts :)
The Pistol fires back: The short answer is there are no corrective/alternative texts in Scripture to support any form of same gender sexual behavior. For example, there are “corrective/alternative” texts to slavery such as “in Christ, there is no slave nor free”. There are “corrective/alternative” texts to women in leadership roles in the stories of Deborah, Dorcas, Priscilla, etc… I see a potential “corrective/alternative” text for a second marriage in the example of widows and if we consider abuse being a potential death to the spirit, to God’s temple. There are simply nothing even close to a “corrective/alternative” text for same-gender sexual relations. The best liberal interpreters can do is some exegetical gymnastics, dismissing the language or context of Scripture as applicable to different types of homosexual relationships (non-consensual, adult-child, prostitution). There is simply nothing, however, in Scripture that hints at a positive view of same gender sexual relations.
Jemila: I have to agree with Pete (see last comment to you)–there simply is no support for it. I agree with your post (at your blog) on the point that it is no more a sin than any other sin. If God forgives all sin–then all sin has the same value–God hates it all. The key that I think everyone is hitting on is our (christian-straight folk) response to that particular sin. It should be no different than as to gluttony, cursing, stealing, covetting, etc… I think the danger that homosexuals face is that if they continue in that lifestyle and proclaim to be followers of Christ–then they are essentialy shooting the finger at God on the Bible’s clear message that same-sex activity is wrong. This was the very problem the Ninevites (sp?) had. Jonah was sent there to proclaim that it was wrong for them to pick and chose which parts of God’s word they were going to follow–The Bible is either total Truth or total Lie–there is no logical way it can be anything inbetween.
I’ve said too much….again. ;)
The Pistol fires back: I’ll see that Jemila gets this. I expect you’ll get an interesting and well-thought-out response. Jemila and I just recently met and discovered we are twins separated by birth. She is 20-years younger than I am. A late bloomer. We are quite a study in the whole nature/nurture debate. She was raised by wolves who are card-carrying members of the ACLU. I, however, was raised in the Bible Belt by a family of orangutans who don’t believe in evolution.
I appreciate the opportunity to get a better understanding of where you’re coming from. I guess I woulda thought Jesus would have addressed the issue if it was something that concerned him…we know Paul was wrestling with how to be a Jewish Christian — what to keep, what to toss. Yet I interpret the whole clean/unclean/clean-in-Christ thing to extend to all areas of life formerly addressed in Leviticus :)
The Pistol fires back: Good point. But Jesus didn’t address every thorny ethical question. Some I think he assumed had already been resolved. I can see, however, how you could make the case about the Paul’s clean/unclean/clean-in-Christ thing. Still, we see Paul including homosexuality in a laundry list of sins (with greed, gossip, etc…). Anyway, it’s been good to converse about this in such a respectful way. Typically, I avoid the topic because it can get so rancorous.
mklasing, I honor where you are coming from. I have an alternative way of understanding scripture. Each person is God-breathed — yet we are full of limitations, imperfections etc, because we are concrete and human. Likewise, scripture is God-breathed but it isn’t God or even the Word (which I think is Jesus.) The bible, while inspired, comes through the belief-systems (and all belief-systems are imperfect,) cultures (all cultures are imperfect,) and other natural filters of the individual writers, editors and compilers of the bible. For this reason, I am okay with questioning Paul. I am comfortable saying, “maybe he decided homosexuality was still unclean, while meat sacrificed to idols could be sanctified because of his own personal opinions, while the underlying principle, advocated by Jesus and Paul alike is that what was considered unclean, either in the Hebrew bible or in a given culture, was made clean in Christ. Some at the time of the early church would have gone the opposite direction, mandating circumcision and making meat sacrificed to idols off-limits. Yet freedom in these areas eventually won out. I hope freedom wins out in all areas. For we are free indeed!
The Pistol fires back: Wow, I’m honored to be the moderator of this esteemed discussion between two worthy colleagues. Murphy, you’re on…
Jemila: I promise I am unqualified to argue the inerrancy of the Bible–however I must say that for me–I have to believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God–meaning that the authors were divinely inspired but that the Word they wrote was directly from God–not inspired by Him. It is a small distinction, but it takes us to a completely different level of understanding the Truth. Once we allow ourselves, as imperfect humans, to decide that maybe the Word is simply “inspired” and not altogether “perfect” then we are attacking the very fabric of our faith. If any part of the Bible is imperfect, then it must all be thrown out–because as imperfect humans we are not qualified to decide which is right and which is wrong–only God can do that—which is why I have to believe that HE wrote it–perfectly.
Whew–that was a lot of words.
We are close to the same belief structure–we just have slightly different premises from which we derive our beliefs. Society plays a HUGE role in this–trying to tell us all the time that the Bible is outdated, written by imperfect humans influenced by their individual bias, etc….
That is all well and good–but for me it comes down to this–either the Bible is Truth or it is not. If it is Truth—then I can find no support for a homosexual lifestyle–no matter how genuine, sophisticated or monogamous (sp?).
The Pistol fires back: Sounds clear to me… Jemila?
Is the Bible God? No. Only God is perfect. Only God is Right. Only GOD is truth.
Is The Bible is the Word of God? No. Jesus is the WORD of God, he is the way and truth and the life, none can understand the Truth of God without first knowing the Love of Christ.
The Bible, however, are the words (not, plural and ‘w’) of God, given by him to his most devout followers, to his prophets. It is part of the Truth, but it was written by Man. Remember that. Remember that, though God did inspire the words written in the Bible, Man ultimately put his hand to the page to write down what it was that God was telling him. If that man believed something to be sinful, it became sinful in the Bible. If something was right, it was right in the Bible.
God gave the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith. God spoke to the prophet Muhammad, giving him the Words of the Qur’ran. Hindus have the Vedas, and the Mahabharata. So many religions have Holy Books written by their prophets, their wise people. They were written for a reason, inspired by the Truth Of God that exists within us all, but none more or less right than another (in my view).
Remember also that the Bible was written long ago, and therefore may not necessarily fit exactly into what our current circumstances would require. Though we must read the Bible and understand it as Truth, the Word is written down in every person’s heart. The Truth of God the Father, the Love of God the Son, and the power of God the Holy Spirit exist within each and every one of us even before, the Bible was written. It will remain in us when the Bible is long gone.
In Luke 12:54-59, Jesus spoke to his followers about interpreting the times. He said: “Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you do not know how to interpret the present time? Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right?”
So, though the Bible is the inspired Word of God, the TRUE, INERRANT, HOLY WORD OF GOD EXISTS WITHIN YOURSELF. No one else can tell you how your relationship with God is, only God can. Not even the Bible can tell you how to live your life, it only gives you clues, gives you the guidelines, but God alone know what is best for you, and if you are a believer in Christ and a Lover of God and of Humanity, God will reveal his truth and his Love in you regardless of any human, sinful limitation.
I just noticed that my obvious passion for this discussion has made me forget my manners. I enjoy this discussion immensely, perhaps because it strikes so close to home, and I’d like to Thank you, Pete, for your inspired and Loving approach to this - obviously - rocky discussion.
I’d also like to commend everyone for being (or trying to be) so intelligent and understanding. It is not often when one can see such humbleness and mutual respect shown in any public space, much less the internet.
Great words, everyone!
God Bless! :D
The Pistol fires back:
Greg, thanks for visiting and weighing in on this topic.
I agree the Bible was written by flawed human beings. It is also true that Christ in the ultimate Word of God.
I firmly believe, however, that Scripture was and is inspired by God in such a way that it shows us the Way, reveals to us the Truth, and gives us new Life in Christ.
I agree with you. The Bible shows us the Way, it illuminates the path to the Truth, but only the self can find that truth and that Way (which is Jesus Christ) on its own. Christians often limit God by giving the Bible too much credit. They make the mistake of using the Bible to condemn and to criticize when in fact they should be using it as a tool to reveal God.
I like to think of it like this:
The body (fleshly existence) is like your car. The driver is the soul - thats you. But there are right ways and wrong ways to drive that car, and you are given an instruction manual on how to keep your car clean and the engine running etc etc.
You have mechanics who tell you how to fix your car (priests, holy people, teachers etc) and some might ask you for money to fix your car for you or (if they are a REALLY good mechanic) offer other methods or turn you towards cheaper services. Or, even better, tell you how to do it yourself. If you are a “car person” then you will come up with your own ways to fix and maintain your car, taking into account what so many others have already told you, but tweaking things in your own way. You may have many screw ups, of course, but thats what being human is all about. Ultimately, though, you decide for yourself what is the right thing for your car and what isn’t.
The Bible is the instruction manual given to Man by God, but it is not the Be-All, End-All of God’s intent for mankind. He reveals himself to everyone in different ways, and to think that the Bible ALONE can reveal God is false. The Bible does reveal God, and it is our job as Christians to teach the Way of God to those who do not know him, but we must temper our judgement with mercy and understanding. Just because the Bible says something does not mean that another person will believe it. Let someone read it for themselves and discover their own truth.
I understand Christians are so adamant about this particular discussion because we have good intentions and because we do not want to see our Brothers and Sisters condemned to eternal damnation, but be careful not to let your intentions hinder God’s truth.
“Thought Justice be thy plea, consider this: that, in the course of justice, none of us should see salvation.”
-Portia from “The Merchant of Venice” by Shakespeare
The Pistol fires back: You make some compelling points. Thanks for such a thoughtful response.
I would contend, however, that Scripture has more authority than you seem to allot it. Barring a direct revelation from God in the person of Christ, the best access we have to who God is and what God does is the Bible. We simply need to be diligent in letting the Holy Spirit teach us what we need to know as we search the Scriptures.