Who Is Going to Hell?
October 30, 2007 by pistolpete
“[Jesus said] I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
A Christian friend of mine was recently approached by a very angry woman who pointed a finger at him and said, “I suppose because you are a Christian, you think everybody else is going to hell.” In the heat of the moment, he was a bit at a loss as to how to respond.
How would you respond?
Here’s what I think -
First, before we respond we need to prayerfully gauge the spirit of the person approaching us. S/he may have been painfully wounded by someone claiming to be a Christian. If the tone of our response is harshly judgmental, the truth of what we say won’t likely be heard at all.
Next, we need to show spiritual humility. I generally say, “I’m not the one who decides who goes to hell, and I thank God for that.” The mystery of our ultimate destiny is one that no one – not even the greatest Biblical scholar – can figure out.
Finally, it is essential that we do offer the hope of our confidence in faith. Something like, “One thing I do know by faith is that Jesus Christ is the way to a new and better life – now and forever.” Don’t get sidetracked comparing and contrasting Christ with Buddha or Mohammed or Moses or whoever. To paraphrase the Apostle Paul – “Preach Christ, and Christ alone.”
**********
more on heaven and hell…
You don’t have a problem with the fact that according to Christianity, somewhere around 3/4’s of the world is going to hell?
Adu to you :)
Hope
The Pistol fires back: Thanks for your response. Not sure where you got the 3/4s figure. I can’t speak for “Christianity”, but I wouldn’t even try to project who is or who isn’t going to hell. Hell is in God’s hands (not mine, or ours) and I thank God for that.
Well I could say 2/3’s if you want me to be more precise. I say 2/3’s because 2/3’s of the world is not Christian, but an different religion. (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/stats.html)
But why 3/4’s? Well, out of those people that call themselves Christian (especially in America) I’d say a good majority of them are not what a lot of Christians would call “true” Christians…as in…just claim it because thats the basic religion in their country. So I guesstimate 3/4’s. Out of conversations I’ve had with Christians that I know…a lot of them agree with that number and would maybe even go smaller.
The Pistol fires back: I’d say you’ve been talking to the wrong folk. Anyone who claims to know who’s in and who’s out of heaven is playing God and that’s just not very, well, you know, Christian.
Can non-Christians go to heaven?
Are all people that say to be Christian…actually saved? I mean the Bible does discuss of people that talk the talk but dont walk the walk. Deceivers and what not. Besides, a lot of people just claim to be Christian…as I said earlier…out of the fact that it is the most accepted religion in America and they dont care otherwise.
The Pistol fires back: All those who are chosen by God, called by Christ, and led by the Holy Spirit will spend eternity in Paradise. Only God knows who (or how many). Certainly, Jesus indicates that not all who claim to be Christians really belong to him. Again, we do well to leave our (and everyone else’s) eternal destiny in God’s hands. We’ve got enough to do just trying to follow Christ in this world.
This discussion is going a bit off from my original question, I must say.
I asked if you believe non-christians will go to heaven to make a point. I assume it was a fairly obvious point I was trying to make and therefor you avoided the question to the best of your ability. If you believe non-christians go to heaven, then that goes against what you said about being called by Christ. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that they weren’t chosen by God, because it could be a different god, so who knows? But if you don’t believe non-christians go to heaven, then I’m sticking with my claim that 2/3’s of the world is going to hell.
Now back to the original question. Do you have a problem with the fact that you god is going to send 2/3’s of the world to hell?
The Pistol fires back: I’m not avoiding the question at all. I’m questioning your terms. I can’t say who is a “Christian” and who isn’t. That’s God’s department. Therefore, it goes without saying, I can’t comment on “non-Christians” (since I don’t know who they are, either). As for the numbers, who’s counting? Whoever is is trying to imitate God (very poorly I might add). I will say this. God’s love knows no limits. God will save all who can be saved.
Honestly now, you really believe you don’t know who non-Christians are?
Lets think about this logically, just for a second. Are Muslims Christians? What about Jews? Hindus? Maybe Buddhists are Christians? Better yet, are atheists christian?
What would you say to me, as a seeker, if I wanted to be a Christian? What would I have to do?
What is it that other people do not do that you could mark off as not being a Christian. What does it mean to be a Christian? What do you absolutely HAVE to believe in to be a Christian?
You don’t have to answer those questions to me, but I am pretty darn sure you are capable of answering them. And with those answers that is then what would be a NON-Christian. Now why is that? Because they simply don’t match the criteria. And as I’ve been saying, thats about 2/3s of the world.
The Pistol fires back: You are full of questions. Good for you. I’ll give these a shot.
1) Do I know who non-Christians are? Yes and no. I know when someone tells me, “I’m not a Christian.” that they don’t aim to follow Christ in their lives. What I don’t know is if and when Christ is in a person’s heart. Jesus told a story about people who think are surprised about their eternal destiny (those who didn’t realize they were receiving Christ are welcomed into Paradise and those who thought they were receiving Christ aren’t). As Christians, the last thing we should do is claim heaven to be our exclusive territory.
2) I would not call persons of other faiths Christians. I would also not tell them they are going to hell. I would simply try to share the “good news” of Jesus and his love and let God take care of the rest.
3) If you want to be a Christian, ask Jesus to be your Savior and follow his guidance as Lord. Simple, but true. The Bible and a good faith community can help a great deal with this.
4) Being a Christian means being a follower of Christ. The essential belief of a Christian is that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. If we accept this as true, other core beliefs follow. Still, we disagree on non-essentials.
5) You seem wedded to this 2/3s figure. Maybe you know something I don’t. Again, I would simply say that some who think they’re in will be out and some who think they’re out will be in.
I do appreciate the opportunity to dialogue with you. Keep coming back.
Well, those questions were more rhetorical than anything, but I suppose the fact that you answered them does give a little more insight (or confusion??) into what you believe.
I’m having a hard time getting a basic understanding of where you stand. Clearly, you believe its all in Gods hands. And I understand that, and in the end I completely agree. It would all be in Gods hands. But I live in the here and now, and as an agnostic [seeker] I find it extremely important to understand what Christians, or even you more specifically believe on who is going to hell.
So basically, from what you’ve told me you believe that to be a Christian you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (which by the way, wouldn’t include ANY of the religions I previously named). Thats basically the gist of your views. However, what confuses me on where you stand is that you say you ‘don’t know if and when Christ is in a persons heart’…does this mean even with Non-Christians? We established that you do believe there are non-christians (people of other religions) and I’m thankful you were willing to finally admit that.
Also, for your part (2)…You say that you wouldn’t tell them that they are going to hell, but yet you would tell them about Jesus Christ. Now, may I be obvious this…but why would you be telling them about Jesus if you didn’t believe that they were going to hell?
I’m willing to bet you’ll have a hard time answering that question without going off on some odd tangent. I could be wrong, and I am.
So to conclude this reply: Who do you *THINK* will go to hell? I’m not putting you into Gods shoes. But as I said earlier, this is an important thing to have a consensus on. Will non-Christians (people of other religions) go to hell, according to the Christian doctrine (or at least your beliefs).
I hope to continue this with you :)
P.S. I linked your blog (this page) on a forum I attend. Hope you don’t mind.
The Pistol fires back: I am happy to converse and thrilled you’ve linked to my blog. To best respond to your questiosn, I found a good quote from Mother Teresa that helps me better articulate my own views here and I plan to include it in an upcoming post. Thanks again for visiting.
Look forward to reading and replying to your post.
In a way, we ourselves choose whether we go to heaven or hell. God gave us the freedom of choice and we can utilize that freedom to choose between good and evil, liberty because of Christ or captivity because of the devil. It is important to note that in Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 10 verse 13, he wrote “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” So in the end it really depends on what is in our hearts, whether we work to obey Him or not.
Then again, there must be a way for those who have never even heard of Christ to return with Him to heaven. I know that God loves all of His children, and because of that love He will provide a way by which we can return with Him. I can feel that He will take into account everyones situation, environment, upbringing, trials, and tribulation to the judgment they will receive. He knows better than all, and I know that He does. Christs atonement was all about love, if a Christian can’t understand that, then they have need to sincerely and prayerfully study the scriptures with all purpose of heart. In John 15:13-14 says “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you.” So what is it that Christ commands us to do?
Corinthians 13 talks about charity, or the pure love of Christ, which is the essence of the gospel of Christ. In the 22nd chapter of Mathew, Christ Himself states that the 2 greatest commandments are to love God and love thy neighbor. How can you show your love for God? Follow the example of Christ. He was always at service to others and by so doing, was at service to God. How is that possible? God’s whole purpose is to help us return to His presence in Heaven, so why would he make it so that the Majority of His children would fail and go to Hell. He wouldn’t. It’s as simple as that, but that doesn’t mean that its free. Serve God and serve others to the best of your ability and Christ will make up the rest, whether you knew his name and religion in this life or not, but that is still up to us, whether WE CHOOSE to do good or not. We will be judged by what God knows is in our hearts and by what He knows we would have done given the knowledge that the Holy Scriptures give us.
If you have any questions or want more scriptural references, send me an e-mail and I will respond to the best of my ability.
James
NT replies: Nice job, James, providing a Biblical reflection on a difficult question. You make some very good points. We would only add that we certainly have the ability to make certain choices, but the power to do good comes from God. Jesus says, “No one is good, but God alone.” (Matthew 10:18) Paul reflects on his persistent sin even after becoming a believer, saying - “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 7:20) We make choices, but God is in control.
Thanks for visiting and responding. Hope you’ll come back often.
Of course all power to do good comes from God. When we make any good decision it is only by the promptings of the Holy Spirit who God left to us as our Guide and our Comforter. Also the agency that we are able to utilize to choose between good and evil is not ours alone, but a gift that god has given to us because of his love. The best thing we can do in this life is to accept God’s will and freely give him ours. Since Christmas is coming up, I believe that it is appropriate to think of things that we can give to our Saviour and not only to our fellow man. What can we do to please Him. Before Christ made the ultimate sacrifice, lambs were offered up, but not just any lamb, ones that were pure and unblemished in similitude of the Christ. Can we give Him a pure heart and a contrite spirit? Can we offer Him our sincere service? Perhaps we can more diligently study the scriptures so we can understand His will a little better then we may be able to model our lives to resemble His.
Also instead of asking everyone what did you get for Christmas or what are you getting, let us ask “What are you giving for Christmas?” and “What did you give?”
So have a very merry Christmas
James
The Pistol fires back: Beautifully put, James. Thank you for your spiritual reflections. May you have a blessed Christmas as well.
Where did u get those foolish facts…?
According to Christianity,2/3 2/4 3/4 of this world are going to hell???????? whattttt?????
Not all pastors go to heaven nor all Christians go to heaven - hope you note this.
And, only God knows and it is only up to Him to judge who’s going to hell or Heaven.
anyways… Love all you guys in Christ
The Pistol fires back: My point exactly. We can’t do the math when it comes to God’s saving love in Christ. Thanks for dropping in and for your comment.
This is an ancient thread, but there’s something that I just can’t let slide:
“Serve God and serve others to the best of your ability and Christ will make up the rest” - James
If this is referring to how to “get to heaven,” then it’s time to break out some Romans because Paul would disagree with you - though you’d find enthusiastic agreement among the LDS.
“We will be judged by what God knows is in our hearts and by what He knows we would have done given the knowledge that the Holy Scriptures give us.”
The Bible is clear about what is in our hearts. Our hearts are wicked and deceitful, so we will certainly be judged on that basis. “Serving God and others” can never change that “lest any man should boast.” And here is the only way to change that: having the righteousness of Christ attributed to you and your own deeds attributed to Christ - who was crushed by the wrath of God on account of those deeds.
As far as being judged on what we “would have done”… I’m curious to see a Scriptural reference for that.
The Pistol fires back:
Thanks for weighing in. It’s nice to see the stuff I wrote a while back is still being read.
I couldn’t find the context for that quote about serving God and others. If it was something I wrote, what I suspect I meant is very much in line with what you said. We can’t earn our salvation, either by what we say or do. So why fret about it? Leave it in God’s/Christ’s hands. God’s intent for our lives is not to be consumed by our personal salvation, but to gratefully receive His saving love (receiving Christ as Savior in our hearts) and then get busy following Christ (as our Lord) in our lives by serving God and God’s people. We do this not to get to heaven, but out of gratitude for the promise of heaven in Christ.
Thanks for the response. The thing that really set off all my alarms was in comment #8 left by James. I could quibble with many things he said there, but the whopper was, “Serve God and serve others to the best of your ability and Christ will make up the rest.”
So my quarrel isn’t with the Pistol except insofar as you allowed such a statement to stand unchallenged.
I see that you are intentionally taking a very gentle tack here, so this is probably just a side-effect of that approach. You’re intentionally staying away for distractions like arguing over the “ratios of saved to unsaved”. I admire your discipline in keeping the conversation on track. “…so why would he make it so that the Majority of His children would fail and go to Hell. He wouldn’t. It’s as simple as that” (again, from James) Quite a statement considering “wide is the gate…” etc. That too made my eyebrows climb up my forehead.
Anyhow, your summary is correct. Our task is not to worry about the faceless numbers, but to pray for and witness to those who actually have a face in our own lives - ourselves and those God has put in our lives.
The Pistol fires back: You’ve read me correctly. Why fan the flames if someone is bent on self-destruction? Best to speak the truth in love and let God handle the rest.
Sorry I just now am seeing Daniels response.
Doubtfully he’ll see my response, but just in case:
Do you believe non-Christians will go to heaven?
—This my friend is where I come up with my math, its not a hard concept to grasp. And its a pretty easy question to answer according to the Christian doctrine.
The Pistol fires back: We’ll see if Daniel responds. In the meantime, why not check out his blog?
Maybe if you could link me? He doesn’t really have a direct link to his page, and there are many Daniels in this world. You could feel free to even delete this comment after you read it if your heart desires?
The Pistol fires back: My mistake. I thought he had a link here.
I’ll take a shot at trumpet’s question.
It seems to me that you are dancing around your point and trying to use rhetorical stabs to hint at it.
You don’t like a doctrine of eternal destines that seems to end with large numbers, even majorities, of people in hell.
Why? Aren’t heaven and hell Christian constructions anyway? If the Bible is mistaken about who goes to heaven and hell, why should it matter for someone who doesn’t accept the Bible as truth? If the Bible isn’t right about Jesus being the only way of salvation from eternal judgement, then why would it be right about the existence of hell (that ‘place’ of judgement) or even a heaven?
If you believe in the Scriptures, then believe what it says about heaven and hell. If you don’t believe in what it says about heaven and hell, then you don’t believe in the Scriptures… and it says about heaven and hell shouldn’t cause you to lose any sleep.
I don’t waste my time arguing with Buddhists about how exactly to reach Nirvana. I think the fundamental premises of Nirvana are screwed up anyway. Why should I care whether a Buddhist thinks it’ll take me at least another 10,000 incarnations to get there? Why should that offend me?
The other motivation that I suspect in your arguments is that you want to reveal to us how cruel and exclusivist the Scriptures are - worse, how bigoted are those of us who believe them! That’s a wholly different conversation. If you’d like to actually have the discussion, we can. But just come out and say it. If I’m wrong in guessing that this is lurking in the back of your mind somewhere, then I apologize for not being more charitable.
The Pistol fires back: I’m sure trumpethope will have a few things to say about this.
meph, Sorry it has been so long for a response. Haven’t bothered to check lately.
I suppose you are a little correct. I do have a problem with so many people going to hell. The concept that God would create us simply to fail…well..it really urks me. I do not believe in the Scriptures, I don’t even believe in God. But surely you are correct when you say that I think its a bit of bigotry for Christians to believe in this.
I suppose I can argue much more than: Wow…you seriously don’t have a problem with god doing this? I mean…the cruelty is amazing. If your a fundie and you believe in the basic concept of hell…my goodness…what a terrible place. Yet, you’ll be all cheeky in heaven and god’ll make everything ok for you if you have a loved one melting down in hell. Come on…you can’t honestly believe this? Its like a fantasy story, something made up in a novel or something. Its absurdity.
I’m glad you’re still interested in this conversation, Hope.
Since you don’t believe in God, let’s start with what you do believe in. At least part of your reason for rejecting the teachings of the Bible is that you find what it says (or what you’ve heard about what it says) to be unjust. Fair enough? You think that what it teaches about the afterlife is cruel and unjust.
Where did you get your sense of justice? It’s difficult to argue that a sense of justice is an evolutionary advantage. I would imagine that clever ruthlessness would be more ‘genetically beneficial’ than justice and mercy.
If you don’t believe in God and we are no more than talking meat, what’s wrong with cruelty and injustice?
My morality is not based off of any religious terms. I feel morality is something that comes from within, and definitely from society. Each person has a basic concept of right and wrong which is instilled in us from birth. So saying I don’t believe in God does not mean that I can’t have a basis of morality–which includes having a problem with cruelty and injustice.
I’m not sure thats what you were asking, but it seemed to me what you were implying. Correct me if I’m wrong?
It sounds like you are saying that your sense of justice (what you called morality) came from
1. within,
2. society,
3. birth,
4. not religion.
Are you saying that justice is important to you because you feel it inside, because you were taught later to feel it inside, and because you were born feeling it inside?
Is that it? That seems like pretty weak sauce. If that is it, then where does that feeling come from? A person who admits no Creator needs some other explanation for the existence of things (including a sense of justice). Why do you feel this way? Why don’t you value raw opportunism instead? Keep in mind that you had this sense of justice when you were a very small child, long before there was any understanding of ’social contracts’ or ‘categorical imperatives’. You just knew, deep down, when something was fair or unfair, and unfairness drove you nuts. Why? Why would evolution perpetuate such a thing that would likely impede survival rather than promote it (assuming, for the moment, that evolution is capable of ‘prefering’ feelings about morality)?
You can probably guess my suggestion: this sense of justice is evidence of a transendant authority. Somewhere, someone has impressed a sense of morality into your very being, and they did it even before you understood the words of your parents.
Ok, ok…you win. There is a god and he has instilled every moral I’ve ever held within me.
But then why would every person see some things differently? There are many things that you may find to be wrong that I may find to be perfectly ok.
So, if as you say: All of our sense of justice has come from the same god, why the different viewpoints? Surely we’ve all been granted a concept of free will. But that doesn’t mean that god would lay down separate “justices” for each man.
The Pistol fires back: Are you guys still going at it? I wonder what God thinks of all this. I imagine God gets a kick out of all the attention. Keep up the good work.
Well, hello people. I’m a friend of Hope’s above, and she thought I might be interested in this topic.
You see, for me, this whole issue is about arguing via a reducto ad absurdum. That is to say, consider the following skeleton of an argument:
1. God wants people to go to heaven.
2. You have to be Christian to go to heaven.
3. Most people are not Christian.
4. Therefore, most people are not going to heaven.
5. Therefore, premises 1 and 2 are incompatible: one or both are mistaken.
This whole thing, then is about showing that the foundations of Christian thought are absurd, and Christianity cannot possibly be correct. The reason why a person such as myself would even pose the question to a Christian would be because it confuses me to no end why people would believe in the face of such blatant contradictions. This isn’t the only contradiction I see in Christianity, by the way. There are many. But this one’s fair enough to focus on.
There are two central premises that need to be focused on here. The first is that God actually desires that people go to heaven. I will just leave that as it stands and assume that you agree with that.
It’s the second premise that perhaps needs a bit of arguing for: that those who are not Christian aren’t going to heaven. Firstly, we must realize that if the first premise above is true, and if God is actually capable, then there is no conceivable way that this one is true. Either, as a Christian, your religion is absurd and you shouldn’t bother considering it to have any validity whatsoever, or non-Christians can also get into heaven.
And there we arise at a contradiction. If your version of Christianity assumes that non-Christians can also get into heaven, then what is the reason to be a Christian in the first place? Why profess belief in the existence of God? In the resurrection of Jesus? In the Holy Spirit? And so we reach a quandary: either Christianity is complete nonsense, or it’s worthless in the pursuit towards its primary claim, the afterlife. Either way, we’re better off focusing on the here and now than the afterlife.
Anyway, this is still a skeleton of an argument, but I’ll leave it there for the time being, as I’m rather tired.
The Pistol fires back: Joe, thank you for visiting. Any friend of Hope’s is a friend of mine.
I see you enjoy logic. I’m more into narrative, than logic. But, I’ll do my best.
#1 God created us to be with Him forever (in what you might call heaven).
#2 We (represented by Adam and Eve) ran away from God (through sin).
#3 God wanted us to come back to him, so he created a Way - to come Himself as Jesus Christ.
#4 Jesus taught us the Truth, show us the Way, and offered us a New Life, forever with God.
#5 Some responded to Jesus by following him, oithers rejected him and kept going their own way.
Now, we come to your points #2 - #5, which I would restate -
#1 Going to heaven is a gift only God (though Christ) can give. Some who profess to be Christians won’t receive the gift. Others who may not profess to be Christians do.
#2 How can we say who is a Christian (in the sense of “Christ-follower)? We could accept statistics of those who claim to be Christians. But, that number would be arbitrary at best. Only God knows who will go to heaven and anyone (Christian or Atheist) who claims to know otherwise is trying to play God (rather unsuccessfully, by the way).
#3 Again, numbers like “some” “many” “most” have relevance in God’s eyes. The Bible says, “God so loved the world (not some, not most) that He gave His only begotten Son so that everyone (not many) who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
#4 I would say if I had to choose, your #2 is incorrect. Not all Christians will go to heaven. The Bible tells the story of a group of people who think they are going to heaven and Jesus tells them they won’t. Others come to him and make no claim, and they are escorted into heaven.
The main point, Joe, I would make is that Christianity is not so much a set of logical rules as it is a relationship with someone who loves us more than we can imagine.
When I was young, I was great at math. After almost 30 years, I still hold the record for best overall score in Algebra II. I loved Math because I could escape from the ugliness and meanness going on in my family at the time. Math was a great diversion. But I needed more.
Then I met someone who showed me the love of Jesus. I thought I was just getting her to go out with me. But God knew she was gettiing me to go to Him.
Thanks for coming. Come again.
You’re contradicting yourself all over the place. You are on the one hand claiming no knowledge as to who goes to heaven and who does not, and on the other claiming to understand the criteria that God uses (belief in Jesus, in your second #3). You can’t claim no knowledge of those criteria in an attempt to escape the cold logic, while at the same time present criteria. Well, clearly you can, as you just did it. But you can’t do that while still hoping to retain some semblance of coherency in your position.
And of course I enjoy logic. Logic is the best means we have of finding the truth. Resorting to other means, after all, is vastly, vastly more prone to human error. Personally, I think it’s sad and ignorant that you think that this means I think nothing else is important. There’s love, there’s beauty, there’s friends and family, there’s all sorts of wonderful things to life. But none of these require any compromise whatsoever with the discovery of the truth.
Finally, your opinion that Jesus loves us more than we can imagine is rather absurd when he’s perfectly willing to send most of humanity to be tortured for all eternity, for the mere offense of failing to believe what his followers say about him.
Jason -
You make some good points, but truthfully I don’t follow you very well. For me, logic is not the best means to approach the truth. As someone with a mental illness, my logic is hard-wired differently and if I relied on it, there is no telling where I would go. I can best approach Truth through relationships - with friends, trusted mentors, and particularly with Jesus Christ.
While I would love to converse with you further, if you really want to approach the question of faith from a logical perspective, I strongly recommend you read the book “The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism” by Tim Keller. You can find it at Amazon here - http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/0525950494/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205235169&sr=1-1
In the meantime, check out my most recent post - “Laurie Kendrick (and God) Come to Therapy”. Laurie is a professional humorist and terrific blogger who has many profound faith questions, as you do. It’s a good read.
Thanks, Jason, for dropping by. Come again soon and often.
I LOVE JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANKS FOR POSTING :)
The Pistol fires back: Great! I’m sure he loves you, too.
I see no reason to read the book. I just took a glance at the rather positive review here:
http://setsnservice.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/blog-review-of-tim-kellers-the-reason-for-god-chapter-by-chapter/
From quotes in that review, I see that Tim Keller is severely misrepresenting science. So I just see no reason whatsoever to bother to pay any further attention to him.
That out of the way, your stance makes no sense whatsoever. How can relationships possibly be a means to discover truth? For example, could your relationship with your family and friends tell you whether the Earth was flat or round?
The Pistol fires back: I have no good response, other than to say I would rather have the warmth of love that cold logic. Keep seeking the Truth, though, Jason. As one good book says, “The truth shall set you free.”
Why not have both? No reason to sacrifice the truth to love others and be loved in return. In fact, I would say not sacrificing the truth is vastly better for doing this, as any incorrect beliefs that a person holds just make it that much more likely that their intentions will not be realized. In the context of love, failing to pay attention to reality would make me far more likely to harm those I love. And since I never know when a particular incorrect believe is going to cause me to harm when I mean to help, I feel I should be rather rigorous in examining all of my beliefs.
Besides, the real world is just plain fascinating.
The Pistol fires back:
I fully agree that the real world is fascinating, for good and bad. I simply believe love is experiential and relational, not abstract and formulaic. Experientially, I have been loved by the person of Jesus Christ within the body of believers. Relationally, I believe God created us out of love, Jesus died for us to express this love, and the Holy Spirit pours forth this love in such ways as inspration and motivation.
I respect your right to believe in a contrary concept of love and search for Truth apart from mine. I’m not trying to convert you to my own set of beliefs. While I would love for you to experience what I’ve experienced, the choice is not up to me.
Again, read Keller’s book. One particularly unfavorable book review will not have the same impact as a full flavor of his positions gain through a complete read.
Hello. have just read the complete track and I must say that I am peprplexed as to Jason’s comment in #22 that “Jesus loves us more than we can imagine is rather absurd when he’s perfectly willing to send most of humanity to be tortured for all eternity, for the mere offense of failing to believe what his followers say about him.” …..
First of all, how is God “perfectly willing” to send most of humanity to hell? That is an absurd comment! If he was willing to do that then there would be know reason for sending his only son to be “tortured, beaten and killed” so that “ALL” who believe in him as savior goes to heaven! How can you say that God is willing to send most to hell. There is NO greater Love then someone who lays his life down!!! What other invitation do we need? All you have to do is accept his offer (Chist as Savior) BUT HE WILL NOT MAKE YOU ACCEPT HIS SON. We are given FREE WILL!! Hallelujah!! He did not create a machine he created human beings with a mind of his own not “PRE PROGRAMMED” like some software. This is our greatest gift! Free will. He wants us to chose him freely not with a gun to our head. Or what some preacher has said. YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IT. and unfortunately ther will be those who do not accept his son and will spend eternity apart from his kingdom. And my last comment is on the last part of what yousaid earlier in #22 the part about failing to believe his followers. Look man dont follow his belivers follow H I M!!! Its those who choose not to FOLLOW HIM! Dont take my word for it either GO READ HIS WORD. Or at least study what Jesus did while on this earth. And dont just read the word STUDY IT! and ask God to help you understand it. Jesus said… Call no man Teacher. Call on HIM to teach you.
God Bless you I hope you find the truth!
The Pistol fires back: Thanks for your response. I’m happy to say I’ve found the Truth and find Him very loving.
Hey sincere evangelists et al…there is no point talking about the Good News unless you clearly tell what is the BAD NEWS… which will make them unbelievers shake in their pants and realise their actual state and fate!
Be bold and give them the plain truth..with LOVE
Thats the problem Mathew, religious decisions should not be based off of fear.
…if more Christians could understand the chronological gospel…beginning in the old testament, with the first adam and the “fall”….and grasp the importance of the blood sacrifices as payment for disobedience …and the law (to contrast mere man with a Holy and Perfect Creator)…..and then , to move into the new testament and introduce the second adam (which Christ is refered to)…and the purpose for God becoming man…the need for the ultimate payment for sin…that ultimate price of the blood sacrifice of a spotless, sinless, Son of God….then….and only then, does it even begin to make sense….
…..yes, we must be enlightened…the bible does mention that only those who are enlightened by the Spirit , will know Him…but i believe that anyone who is truly searching for the truth and opens himself up to it, can ask for guidance and understanding of the Spirit of God….through studying the scriptures, they may begin to understand….yet ultimately, it comes down to faith…no amount of convincing or explaining will actually win anyone ….
…..it is not in “asking Christ to be our Lord and Savior” that we find salvation , for you will not find those words written in that context anywhere in scriptures…it is in ” believing” that we are adopted into the family of God…only by believing in the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ….then, and only then, does He become our Lord….our Savior…
…..for those of you who are searching…who are doubting, who may be angry….you are those who will find the truth, if you “seek it with all your heart”….for you will “find the truth” and ” the truth will set you free”….for as the Holy Scriptures say…Jesus is” the way, the truth ….and the life”….
……please don´t depend solely on any one of us who believe to find the answers….before making any judgment, i challenge you to study the scriptures for yourself…find a chronological bible (one that has been put into the correct chronological time sequence …the correct order in when each book was written)….and begin to read with an open mind…don´t try to understand or figure it out…just read it as if you were reading any history book…continue on through the whole of the new testament (i think you will find the book of romans ( especially chapters seven and eight ) to be especially enlightening, in reference to Christ and the meaning and importance His death played for all mankind….i found that Jesus came to “give life” …to “do away with the law”…for as the scriptures tell us ” the law killeth, but the spirit giveth life”…there is nothing any man can “do” to be saved…its not in the words we say….its not n the laws we are able to keep….it comes down to one simple precept …believing…
…..so please continue your searching…but don´t come to any definite conclusions until you have read for yourself, the story of a Creator God and the incredible unfolding of a story of man and his relationship with this God….
…..on a final note…a book that i found very insightful, in relation to our search to understand God, is a book called “Dissapointment with God” by Philip Yancey….i highly recommend it…..and please believe me when i say, i have been where you are…and my search has lead me to where i am today…a believer and follower of Jesus Christ… a woman in awe of her God…
In the Spring of 2006, God talked to me. He told me the meaning of First is Last and Last is First. The meaning is in this message from God:
In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon I live my life. In the evening I die, death.
What does this mean? It means that Birth is Last and Last is Birth. God also gave an example so that you can understand this better. Example: In 2006, Mike Douglas died on his birthday. (Note: Mike Douglas and Michael Douglas are two different people. Michael is still alive.) Melanie Stefine
In the Summer of 2007, God had this message:
We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day.</b?